I wasn't trying to argue something specific, more just trying to clarify. Yes, I consider crates, leashes, gates, etc. to be management tools because they're primarily used to prevent unwanted behaviors.
So, in the recall example, I can certainly get the dog to return to me using a leash by applying pressure (ideally as little as can be effective, and not jerking but consistent). And there's nothing wrong with that. But when I apply pressure, they come, and then I reinforce, usually in the dog's mind what's being reinforced is responding to the leash pressure. An off leash recall requires proper motivation.
The vast majority of the training process involves understanding what your dog finds reinforcing. Sometimes it's food. Sometimes it's play. Other times they just want to be close to their person. Anything can be reinforcing, we just have to dig a little to discover it. For instance, sniffing (since we were talking about sniffaris earlier) can be used to reinforce wanted behavior. I put my dog on a leash, he sees a bush he really wants to sniff, so I call him to me (a bush outside is probably something we'd build up to but it's the same premise), when he completes the recall on his own volition, i mark it and then we move together to allow him to sniff the bush. The thing he wants in the moment becomes the reinforcer for what I'd like him to do first (it's called the Premack principle).
Having a leash on absolutely sets them up for success and prevents potentially dangerous or tragic choices, but it's finding the appropriate motivator in that moment that helps the dog see that his choices matter and by engaging with me politely we can all get what we want.
100% you need to find the right reward (I’m using that word specifically vs motivation). And I love me some opportunistic environmental rewards. I use water a lot of the time with boarding dogs because sometimes that is the only thing I can find to reward them with during the first week. I reward my Heeler with swimming if we’re by a body of water. Your dog loves to smell.
The reason I used reward instead of motivator is because I think they can be different things. A dog is motivated to remove pressure because it’s uncomfortable, and while you could argue that the relief of pressure is a reward, I wouldn’t say a dog works their butt off for the release of the pressure, but they will for food, toy, the bite, water, whatever.
I’m still curious though, if you do not have a meaningful reward for the dog, how do you get them to come back to you?
Well, this is why I say management tools like leashes are crucial. If it's a matter of safety or we just need to get somewhere, then I use the leash (respectfully).
But that might be the (very excellent) root question of all of this: without a meaningful reward, how do you get them to come back? I think that points out how complex the whole conversation is:
1. Why do you want them to come back? Is it urgent? Are they in danger? Or are you training and safely able to wait them out?
2. Who gets to decide what's meaningful? How many reinforcement options do you have available to try (it's always more than simply food and toys)? Can they shred a nearby stick? Can they chase a treat instead of just taking it from your hand? Can they sniff? Can they swim? If a dog is engaging with the world at all, there are meaningful reinforcers around.
3. If there is truly nothing to motivate them to perform a given behavior, then that's not an issue of motivation. That means the entire seeking/curiosity system is offline, they are over threshold, and no learning can occur anyway.
I don’t think it’s complex at all. The leash is how you get them back when you are teaching them recall. The leash lets them know it’s a non-negotiable. You must come back when I say “come” and you must come to me without stopping along the way. Once they understand this, then I can layer over the e-collar and use that as my “you must” key. If my dog does not come when I ask, there is a consequence.
To answer your questions:
I want my dog to come back because I am asking them to. I don’t only practice recall when there is a person, dog, squirrel, etc. I recall so that they understand come means come no matter what, so that when there IS something very exciting, they understand the consequences of their choices and it’s an automated response.
The dog decides what is meaningful, whether it’s a reward or a punishment. Withholding a burger from me is not punishment because I am a vegetarian. Just like a burger is not a reward for me. Forcing me to eat a burger, however, would be punishment.
When it comes to recall the chase is generally WAY more meaningful than a treat or a stick or whatever I could offer. I can’t override prey drive by letting my dog know there’s a swimming hole here. There is not always going to be a reward.
I disagree. This is why the leash is a tool. I use it to apply pressure (-R) as a motivator to do a behavior. They complete it, I reward with food or play or freedom. Over time, I can phase out both the leash pressure and the reward because they understand what I want and that I mean what I say. Most dogs are not asked to work, they get everything for free, so they are not motivated to work, because it’s worked for them.
I think we may just be working toward slightly different end goals in training, which naturally changes the methods we prioritize.
For some people, the primary goal of recall is reliability and immediate compliance no matter the context. In that framework, tools that communicate “this is non-negotiable” make complete sense.
I tend to approach recall a little differently. I’m very interested in the emotional and relational side of why a dog chooses to return, what competing needs are present, and how to build a history where engagement with the handler consistently feels valuable to the dog even around powerful distractions.
That doesn’t mean safety, management, or reliability don’t matter to me (they absolutely do). I just spend a lot of time thinking about what’s happening underneath the behavior itself, not only whether the behavior occurred.
So I think we probably agree on more mechanically than it appears. We just emphasize different parts of the process.
I find our guy Jack responds immediately, always, when the prong collar is on. In fact, just putting it on him, he acts differently, more aware of us, and less “ doing his own thing”. We don’t keep it on— we use it mainly on walks. But when he uses just a regular collar and the leash I find he does not respond nearly as quickly or effectively to commands and gestures.
Yup! It’s because the motivation isn’t there. It’s the same reason we slow down when we see a cop or speed tracking signs, why I put my seat belt on before I start the car (I cannot stand the ding), or why I take off my shoe if there’s a rock poking me.
I would also say if he’s not responding to commands and gestures by this point without the prong or e-collar, then get in more reps with your tools and food/play and work toward immediate response. Once you have that, you will find less reliance on the tools.
No need to feel dumb! It seems weird at first to think about using a leash inside the home or just about everywhere to start, but once you use it, it’ll become a no brainer!
I’m working on figuring that out, Kathleen! Right now I want to offer everything for free and see where this goes, but that will change soon. I anticipate offering interviews with experts (both inside and outside of dog training), behavior change challenges, and more.
About the leash as a training tool: I don’t see how you could avoid just dragging your dog on the leash if refuses to move, or pulling him into a down if he stays standing , or pulling him up into the car if he won’t jump in on his own. So I felt like your post about using the leash was a bit unfinished.
I can see how it might feel like the post is a bit unfinished. The leash is simply one tool I use in my tool box. I have an assortment of tools I’ll use for teaching obedience, walking, recall, etc. Training is about clear communication and using the right motivators and consequences for behaviors. The leash, coupled with other tools, helps me communicate, motivate, and reward.
I love the leash! It's an elegant management tool, and my 3 yo Aussie still drags his leash at home. I would argue, however, it's not a great training tool; most of the time it doesn't communicate what you'd like the dog to do instead. With focused training you can inform your dog that leash pressure carries valuable information, but that's highly focused work.
For example, training a recall involves starting with heavily used management tools to set them up for success (like a leash), finding the right motivation for your dog to return (90% of the time, don't recall away from fun or towards scary things), using it often enough successfully that you can consistently pair the return with your cue in a variety of scenarios (while maintaining that motivation), then phase out the use of management tools.
So, I absolutely agree leashes (and other management tools) are a critical first step! But, I just want to clarify the nuance that they're more what prevents failure instead of the component that leads to success.
I’m not quite sure I understand your argument in this scenario or how you define training tool vs management tool. Based on what I think you mean, you’d call the crate a management tool vs a training tool, as an example. In my mind, the crate, leashes, etc are part of my training toolbox.
In your recall example, what do you use for motivation? What if the dog doesn’t care about food? Or play? Or you? How do you get your dog back to you?
That’s where the leash comes in. You add pressure (thus communicating to the dog what you want them to do) and when they come, the pressure is gone (-R = motivation). During the learning phase, I then add the marker as soon as the dog comes/I release the pressure and pay (+R = motivation #2). Paired with the right kind of collar, you can further change the motivation of the dog and create even better communication.
I also desire highly focused work. Most dogs I work with are used to doing whatever they want and not having to actually think. Their reactions and responses have become habitual. So I’m having to rewire their brain and habits to make a better choice in certain situations. I need that focused work to create the change.
Just a follow up thought, I love using Premack even for focused/ precision work.
"Perform an obedience heel at my side as we walk in a focused square. End on a sit with perfect attention." Then mark and release him to sniff or play with a toy or say hi to the person. I also have different release words: Go Sniff, Go Play, Go Say Hi. This allows me to release him to do something specific, not just run free.
This has me thinking. I feel like Premack Principle pops up every now and then. I do this as well, I suppose. You must go potty before we play.
I think with dogs, however, this theory can only work when you have motivation for something and the dog understands both the reward and the work they must do to earn the reward.
I incorporate obedience into my play sessions not because I want them to have the thing they want, but because it’s a game we’re playing together and it builds impulse control, attention on me, and fun with play.
I think the danger zone with Premack is that it becomes bribery. If you come, I’ll give you a treat. So what happens when you don’t have the treat? How do you tell an off leash dog that is chasing a deer if they come back you’ll give them X? And how do you get them to return reliably without a reward every time?
I wasn't trying to argue something specific, more just trying to clarify. Yes, I consider crates, leashes, gates, etc. to be management tools because they're primarily used to prevent unwanted behaviors.
So, in the recall example, I can certainly get the dog to return to me using a leash by applying pressure (ideally as little as can be effective, and not jerking but consistent). And there's nothing wrong with that. But when I apply pressure, they come, and then I reinforce, usually in the dog's mind what's being reinforced is responding to the leash pressure. An off leash recall requires proper motivation.
The vast majority of the training process involves understanding what your dog finds reinforcing. Sometimes it's food. Sometimes it's play. Other times they just want to be close to their person. Anything can be reinforcing, we just have to dig a little to discover it. For instance, sniffing (since we were talking about sniffaris earlier) can be used to reinforce wanted behavior. I put my dog on a leash, he sees a bush he really wants to sniff, so I call him to me (a bush outside is probably something we'd build up to but it's the same premise), when he completes the recall on his own volition, i mark it and then we move together to allow him to sniff the bush. The thing he wants in the moment becomes the reinforcer for what I'd like him to do first (it's called the Premack principle).
Having a leash on absolutely sets them up for success and prevents potentially dangerous or tragic choices, but it's finding the appropriate motivator in that moment that helps the dog see that his choices matter and by engaging with me politely we can all get what we want.
100% you need to find the right reward (I’m using that word specifically vs motivation). And I love me some opportunistic environmental rewards. I use water a lot of the time with boarding dogs because sometimes that is the only thing I can find to reward them with during the first week. I reward my Heeler with swimming if we’re by a body of water. Your dog loves to smell.
The reason I used reward instead of motivator is because I think they can be different things. A dog is motivated to remove pressure because it’s uncomfortable, and while you could argue that the relief of pressure is a reward, I wouldn’t say a dog works their butt off for the release of the pressure, but they will for food, toy, the bite, water, whatever.
I’m still curious though, if you do not have a meaningful reward for the dog, how do you get them to come back to you?
Well, this is why I say management tools like leashes are crucial. If it's a matter of safety or we just need to get somewhere, then I use the leash (respectfully).
But that might be the (very excellent) root question of all of this: without a meaningful reward, how do you get them to come back? I think that points out how complex the whole conversation is:
1. Why do you want them to come back? Is it urgent? Are they in danger? Or are you training and safely able to wait them out?
2. Who gets to decide what's meaningful? How many reinforcement options do you have available to try (it's always more than simply food and toys)? Can they shred a nearby stick? Can they chase a treat instead of just taking it from your hand? Can they sniff? Can they swim? If a dog is engaging with the world at all, there are meaningful reinforcers around.
3. If there is truly nothing to motivate them to perform a given behavior, then that's not an issue of motivation. That means the entire seeking/curiosity system is offline, they are over threshold, and no learning can occur anyway.
I don’t think it’s complex at all. The leash is how you get them back when you are teaching them recall. The leash lets them know it’s a non-negotiable. You must come back when I say “come” and you must come to me without stopping along the way. Once they understand this, then I can layer over the e-collar and use that as my “you must” key. If my dog does not come when I ask, there is a consequence.
To answer your questions:
I want my dog to come back because I am asking them to. I don’t only practice recall when there is a person, dog, squirrel, etc. I recall so that they understand come means come no matter what, so that when there IS something very exciting, they understand the consequences of their choices and it’s an automated response.
The dog decides what is meaningful, whether it’s a reward or a punishment. Withholding a burger from me is not punishment because I am a vegetarian. Just like a burger is not a reward for me. Forcing me to eat a burger, however, would be punishment.
When it comes to recall the chase is generally WAY more meaningful than a treat or a stick or whatever I could offer. I can’t override prey drive by letting my dog know there’s a swimming hole here. There is not always going to be a reward.
I disagree. This is why the leash is a tool. I use it to apply pressure (-R) as a motivator to do a behavior. They complete it, I reward with food or play or freedom. Over time, I can phase out both the leash pressure and the reward because they understand what I want and that I mean what I say. Most dogs are not asked to work, they get everything for free, so they are not motivated to work, because it’s worked for them.
I think we may just be working toward slightly different end goals in training, which naturally changes the methods we prioritize.
For some people, the primary goal of recall is reliability and immediate compliance no matter the context. In that framework, tools that communicate “this is non-negotiable” make complete sense.
I tend to approach recall a little differently. I’m very interested in the emotional and relational side of why a dog chooses to return, what competing needs are present, and how to build a history where engagement with the handler consistently feels valuable to the dog even around powerful distractions.
That doesn’t mean safety, management, or reliability don’t matter to me (they absolutely do). I just spend a lot of time thinking about what’s happening underneath the behavior itself, not only whether the behavior occurred.
So I think we probably agree on more mechanically than it appears. We just emphasize different parts of the process.
I find our guy Jack responds immediately, always, when the prong collar is on. In fact, just putting it on him, he acts differently, more aware of us, and less “ doing his own thing”. We don’t keep it on— we use it mainly on walks. But when he uses just a regular collar and the leash I find he does not respond nearly as quickly or effectively to commands and gestures.
Yup! It’s because the motivation isn’t there. It’s the same reason we slow down when we see a cop or speed tracking signs, why I put my seat belt on before I start the car (I cannot stand the ding), or why I take off my shoe if there’s a rock poking me.
I would also say if he’s not responding to commands and gestures by this point without the prong or e-collar, then get in more reps with your tools and food/play and work toward immediate response. Once you have that, you will find less reliance on the tools.
Very good post. I feel dumb for never thinking about the leash like that before but it makes total sense. Looking forward to learning more. 🐕🦺
No need to feel dumb! It seems weird at first to think about using a leash inside the home or just about everywhere to start, but once you use it, it’ll become a no brainer!
What is the full experience of this site vs unpaid?
I’m working on figuring that out, Kathleen! Right now I want to offer everything for free and see where this goes, but that will change soon. I anticipate offering interviews with experts (both inside and outside of dog training), behavior change challenges, and more.
About the leash as a training tool: I don’t see how you could avoid just dragging your dog on the leash if refuses to move, or pulling him into a down if he stays standing , or pulling him up into the car if he won’t jump in on his own. So I felt like your post about using the leash was a bit unfinished.
I can see how it might feel like the post is a bit unfinished. The leash is simply one tool I use in my tool box. I have an assortment of tools I’ll use for teaching obedience, walking, recall, etc. Training is about clear communication and using the right motivators and consequences for behaviors. The leash, coupled with other tools, helps me communicate, motivate, and reward.
Yes, for sure.
I love the leash! It's an elegant management tool, and my 3 yo Aussie still drags his leash at home. I would argue, however, it's not a great training tool; most of the time it doesn't communicate what you'd like the dog to do instead. With focused training you can inform your dog that leash pressure carries valuable information, but that's highly focused work.
For example, training a recall involves starting with heavily used management tools to set them up for success (like a leash), finding the right motivation for your dog to return (90% of the time, don't recall away from fun or towards scary things), using it often enough successfully that you can consistently pair the return with your cue in a variety of scenarios (while maintaining that motivation), then phase out the use of management tools.
So, I absolutely agree leashes (and other management tools) are a critical first step! But, I just want to clarify the nuance that they're more what prevents failure instead of the component that leads to success.
I’m not quite sure I understand your argument in this scenario or how you define training tool vs management tool. Based on what I think you mean, you’d call the crate a management tool vs a training tool, as an example. In my mind, the crate, leashes, etc are part of my training toolbox.
In your recall example, what do you use for motivation? What if the dog doesn’t care about food? Or play? Or you? How do you get your dog back to you?
That’s where the leash comes in. You add pressure (thus communicating to the dog what you want them to do) and when they come, the pressure is gone (-R = motivation). During the learning phase, I then add the marker as soon as the dog comes/I release the pressure and pay (+R = motivation #2). Paired with the right kind of collar, you can further change the motivation of the dog and create even better communication.
I also desire highly focused work. Most dogs I work with are used to doing whatever they want and not having to actually think. Their reactions and responses have become habitual. So I’m having to rewire their brain and habits to make a better choice in certain situations. I need that focused work to create the change.
Just a follow up thought, I love using Premack even for focused/ precision work.
"Perform an obedience heel at my side as we walk in a focused square. End on a sit with perfect attention." Then mark and release him to sniff or play with a toy or say hi to the person. I also have different release words: Go Sniff, Go Play, Go Say Hi. This allows me to release him to do something specific, not just run free.
This has me thinking. I feel like Premack Principle pops up every now and then. I do this as well, I suppose. You must go potty before we play.
I think with dogs, however, this theory can only work when you have motivation for something and the dog understands both the reward and the work they must do to earn the reward.
I incorporate obedience into my play sessions not because I want them to have the thing they want, but because it’s a game we’re playing together and it builds impulse control, attention on me, and fun with play.
I think the danger zone with Premack is that it becomes bribery. If you come, I’ll give you a treat. So what happens when you don’t have the treat? How do you tell an off leash dog that is chasing a deer if they come back you’ll give them X? And how do you get them to return reliably without a reward every time?